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Author Topic:   Engagement ranges - Charles Lemmons
AlexH
Member
posted 06-24-2005 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlexH     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Of course you've only ever been able to show that the "neccessity" is only "obvious" to you today and not to the actual decision makers then, but heck, that hasn't stopped you yet has it?


Do you think it would have been a good idea to upgun earlier?

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Rich
Moderator
posted 06-24-2005 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rich     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlexH:

Do you think it would have been a good idea to upgun earlier?

Yes, I find myself constantly wondering why the US Army didn't deploy the M1A1 SEP in Tunisia in December 1942 instead of the M4A1?

BTW, I think I'm going to make that my mantra to reply to you from now, since your mantra is the only reply that I ever get from you. Fair is fair after all.

[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 06-24-2005).]

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John D Salt
Member
posted 06-25-2005 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John D Salt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andreas:
[Snips]
In October 42 nothing was known about the Panther, and very little (if anything) about the Tiger (I think the first intact Tiger was only captured by the British in Feb. 1943?).

A letter dated 14th Nov 1942 in PRO file WO 185/133, "Tungsten Carbide Production" mentions a "rumoured new tank" with 100mm front and 60mm side armour, believed to have double skin armour...

quote:
Originally posted by Andreas:

Check e.g. www.lonesentry.com/tigerheavytank/ for what US beliefs were in mid-1943.

...which I imagine explains why the US document makes specific mention of the Tiger not having spaced armour.

Spaced armour was a concern given the development of the Littlejohn adaptor to improve 2-pdr performance, and there were proposals at various times to place more reliance on HEAT rounds for tank-killing. I think it was Zuckermann, might have been Blackett, who suggested that the main infantry ATk weapon should be a large-calibre HEAT firing weapon protected by thick armour mounted on a carrier chassis, which sounds fun, but is probably not as practical as the 6-pdr.

All the best,

John.

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Andreas
Senior Member
posted 06-25-2005 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlexH:
[QUOTE]The question stands - why?


Because then we would have a tank able to deal with Tigers & Panthers from the front earlier.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes. Just that those were tanks nobody knew existed then on the US side.

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Tangoj
Senior Member
posted 06-26-2005 12:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tangoj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding the “who thought of up gunning, and when it might have been available, the following is extracted from “Armored Forces” by Richard Ogorkiewicz. I hope it illustrates that things can be thought of, planned, started, and still not make it out in time for the “hind sight” decided ‘best time’.

“In 1942, when the design work on the M4 medium was completed and its production was underway, the field was open for the design of a new medium tank. This was in fact started in May, resulting in the T20, a tank based on the mechanical components of the M4, but rearranged, with the drive placed for the first time since the T4 in the rear; giving a longer lower silhouette vehicle. What was more important it had a more powerful 76mm gun in place of the medium velocity 75 of the M4. Altogether it was a design which would have kept the US in the forefront of medium tank development and which could have been introduced by the beginning of 1944. Unfortunately this did not happen.

By 1943 the original concept of the Armored Force had lost ground, its decisive role was played down and the official doctrine settled on the exploitation role. For this the M4 appeared quite adequate. It did well in the British offensive at El Alemain in October 1942, where it was used for the first time and it was generally well up on the contemporary standard in medium tanks. Earlier there had been some criticism by the British of the M3 on account of the mounting of its 75mm gun, though the gun itself was appreciated, and this was repeated when the 1st US Armored Division landed in North Africa in 1942. But the M4 was thought to put all this and other matters right.

Moreover, quite early in the broad planning of tank production there developed something of an obsession with numbers, based partly on the usual overestimates of enemy numerical strength. The introduction of a new model was therefore, resisted as would have caused some drop in the quantities produced, even though in 1942 medium tanks alone account for 21,000 out of the peak annual total of 29,497 tanks. Altogether 57,027 medium tanks were produced, 49,234 of which were M4, out of a total of 88,000 tanks produced by the US during the Second World War.

In addition, the new medium tank development handicapped itself when the earlier T20 and T22 models were succeeded by the T23, which had an electrical, instead of mechanical, transmission. All these factors together with the absence of large scale armored operations such as those in Russia which spurred German and Soviet tank development, combined with the result that the production of the M4 was continued much longer than it should have been. As a further result American armored units which landed in Normandy in mid-1944 were still equipped with the 75mm gun M4, which by the standard of the Russian front and of the contemporary German Panther and Soviet T34/85 medium tanks was obsolete.

It was only in February of 1944, only four months before the Normandy landings, that the need for a more powerfully armed medium tank that the 75mm gun M4 was acknowledged, and to try and put matters right the turret and the 76mm gun of the T20 series were grafted onto the M4. A few of the resulting 76mm gun M4 were used in Normandy and its numbers grew thereafter, particularly in the final months of the war, in 1945. To some extent it redressed the balance as far as the quality of American medium tanks went, but basically it was not as good a tank as the T20.

The T20 series did emerge eventually, but in a different guise. Having dropped the unfortunate electrical transmission, and under the influence of the German Tiger I acquired a 90mm gun it became a heavy tank, the 41 ton M26 or Pershing. The user arm fixated in the exploitation role, had no part in it initially but the combined efforts of the Ordinance Department, and the General Staff brought it through and its production started at the beginning of 1944. Some were used in Europe, in the spring of 1945, too late to be able to exert any significant effect.”

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AlexH
Member
posted 06-27-2005 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlexH     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Yes...


It wasn't that painful now, was it?
quote:
....I find myself constantly wondering why the US Army didn't deploy the M1A1 SEP in Tunisia in December 1942 instead of the M4A1?

Probably fear of Axis air forces prevented it somehow...

Just KIDDING!

Seriously (and back to the regularly scheduled programming),

It seems that the range info provided by Mr. Salt goes to show that the firepower advantage enjoyed by the Germans was somewhat mitigated by the "closeness" of tank vs tank engagements - at least in the Western Front.

Now, I recall several accounts of fighting during the invasion of France, tank vs tank fighting seems to have been close range (<600 yds) too, although I don't have any hard stats on that.

Did the US Army get any kind of info/reports from observers? Perhaps from debriefings of French personnel?

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