On the morning of the 11th on the other hand, they launched an attack in the rain against solid positions that was not well prepared or organized, in addition to the Panzer sliding on the inclines because of the weather. Mellenthin came over and criticized the attack for not being properly organized, including artillery support and ordered them to do it again in the afternoon. That afternoon, 11th PzD cancelled the attack as they did not feel that without air support, they could make an effective attack against the strong Soviet positions (which was probably a correct assessment), so the attack was scheduled for the following day. This all resulted in the division going no where for the entire day.

The next day, July 12, the Soviet forces were attacking.

Thanks for the information. Do you think those events had a bearing on Generalmajor Mickl's replacement a month later?

Actually a number of Germans commanders came under criticism "on the record" from their senoir commanders during the battle, and it did not seem to affect their careers. This includes Weitersheim (who on the whole seems competent), Breith and especially Decker.

Our list of German commanders at Kursk originally came from one of our researchers. The spot checking I did of it gave me confidence in the list, but I never did cross check the 11th PzD. Wietersheim is listed in the Kursk Data Base (KDB).

I do find myself in disagreement with the "Third Reich Fact Book" over the assignments of five other division commanders (57th, 198th, 320th, 332nd and Totenkopf).

Thanks.

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
...and I too find myself in disagreement with a good deal of the information found on that particular website.

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Yes, but in this particular case, the website was correct. I am also now suspicious that our commander for the 198th ID may be incorrect. In both cases, apparently our data was drawn from Samual Mitchem Jr's "Hitler's Legions: German Army Order of Battle, World War II"....a book I personally have not seen.

In the case of the unit documents, we have Mickl's name in the signature block of an order for 6/29 and have his signatures for documents dated 7/01 and 7/15. I cannot find any such confirmation from the 198th ID records in my hands.

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In any case, in August, General Mickl was transferred to command of the 392 (kroat.) Inf. Div. in Yugoslavia! Not exactly the expected career path of a highly decorated panzer veteran, I’d say.

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This may have been because he was Slovene. You may want to check the posting in the Axis Biological website forum on "Slovenes in Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS". He was promoted to LtGen in 1944.

I did a quick perusal of that thread on the ABR forum that you mentioned and did not see Mickl referred to. He was born in the Steiermark region of Austria and may well have been Slovene. He was promoted to Generalleutnant April 1, 1944 (not the same as LtGen, BTW).

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
Uh, well umm, Hitler's Legions is badly out of date and notorious for it's mistakes.

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Obviously, as was just proven.

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I don't know who you have at 198 Inf. Div. but I believe the commander at that time was Generalmajor Hans-Joachim von Horn.

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We are showing MG Ludwig Muller, which I have reason to doubt.

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If you are interested, perhaps you should tell me who you have in command of various units and I can confirm them for you.

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Well thanks, a cross-check always helps. I will take you up on that offer. They are, from left to right:

57th ID: LtG. Friedrich Siebert
255th ID: LtG. Walter Poppe
332nd ID: LtG. Shaefer (wounded)
acting: Col. Helmut Pfeifer

3rd PzD: LtG. Franz von Westhoven
GD PzGrD: LtG. Walter Hoernlein
11th PzD: MG Johann Mickl
167th ID: LtG. Wolf Trierenberg

LSSAH PzGrD: Col. Theodor Wisch
DR SS PzGrD: LtG. Walter Krueger
T SS PzGrD: LtG. Hermann Priess

168th ID: MG Walter Chales de Beaulieu
6th PzD: MG Walter von Huenersdorff (mortally wounded)
Acting: ???
19th PzD: LtG. Gustav Schmidt
7th PzD: MG Baron Hans von Funck

106th ID: LtG. Werner Forst
320th ID: MG Georg Postel

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I did a quick perusal of that thread on the ABR forum that you mentioned and did not see Mickl referred to.

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I found it by doing a search on Yahoo under "Johann Mickl". Try:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4671&start=25

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He was promoted to Generalleutnant April 1, 1944 (not the same as LtGen, BTW).

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
I'll look up those commanders this evening and get back to you later.

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Thanks

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How can you say that Generalleutnant is equavalent to a US Major General (true) and that it is correct to translate Generalleutnant as Lieutenant General? Am I missing something here?

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Well, I think there are three valid options here. You can:

1. Translate the German ranks into their equivalent US ranks (so that you have German Brigadier Generals), etc.....(I have seen this done). I don't like this option.

2. Use the German rank terms, which I consider not really acceptable for an English language book...especially if one consistantly does the same for the Soviet Army and use the transliterated Russian terms ("General-Leitenant").
I have never seen this approach used for both sides.

3. Or, translate the German and Soviet ranks "semi-literally" (i.e. Lt. General) into English language terms, and insert a table of comparative ranks in the book. I have chosen this option.

Now I have seen some books use the German ranks terms for the Germans, and semi-literal English translations for the Soviet commanders...but this seems very inconsistent.

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
I believe the only incorrect commander is 57 Inf.Div. which was commanded by Generalmajor Otto Fretter-Pico at that time.

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Thanks, I'll take a look further at MG Fretter-Pico

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Also, Kdr. 3 Pz.Div. was Franz Westhoven not von Westhoven.

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Actually, our interview with LtG. Kleffel (Bundeswehr, ret. -- so a real LtG.), who was his ADC during the battle refers to him as "von"....So...are you sure he was not a "von"?

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Walter von Hünersdorff was mortally wounded on July 15 and initially replaced by Oberst Martin Unrein (Kdr. Pz.Gr.Rgt. 4) and soon thereafter by Oberst Wilhelm Crisolli.

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On a slightly different topic, can you tell me from your original documents exactly what role Generalleutnant Dietrich von Choltitz played at XXXXVIII Pz.K. at this time? Most sources indicate that he was "stellv. Führer", but I'm not clear whether he was a deputy to (assisted) v.Knobelsdorff or deputized for (temporarily replaced) v.Knobelsdorff. Any insight here would be greatly appreciated.

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
Thanks for your take on the rank translation thing, I understand, I don't agree... but I understand !

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So what, we should use German terms for Germans, and English translations for Soviets? This book is not going to look all the favorable to the Soviet Army, without the additional insult of favoring the German language over the Russian language (like George Nipe does).

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Was Kleffel (I presume not Philipp Kleffel) speaking in german or english?

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Paul-Georg Kleffel. He was a captain at the time. The interview was conducted in 1999 by MG D. Brand (Bundeswehr, ret.) in German, written up by him in German and then translated by W-D. Brand into English. I have copies of both versions. He is referred to in the German version as "Generalmajor v. Westhoven" or "v. Westhoven" which W-D. Brand translates as "Major General von Westhoven."

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I have several documents from Westhoven's personnel file and can send you a copy for confirmation of his name if you like.

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If that is not a big problem, that would be very helpful. Our address is:

The Dupuy Institute
3519 Beverly Drive
Annandale, VA 22003

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On a slightly different topic, can you tell me from your original documents exactly what role Generalleutnant Dietrich von Choltitz played at XXXXVIII Pz.K. at this time? Most sources indicate that he was "stellv. Führer", but I'm not clear whether he was a deputy to (assisted) v.Knobelsdorff or deputized for (temporarily replaced) v.Knobelsdorff. Any insight here would be greatly appreciated.

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This is new to me. I'll take a look at the unit records, but usually they simply refer to the CG of the Corps, and do not name personnel. I may have a Corps personnel list though. It was my understanding that von Knobelsdorff was commanding throughout.

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Originally posted by Chris Lawrence:
So what, we should use German terms for Germans, and English translations for Soviets?

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I understand your point, but as the Russian is in Cyrillic it has to be translated to something, doesn't it.

As to the Westhoven documents, I would just as soon email copies to you if that is ok.

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
I understand your point, but as the Russian is in Cyrillic it has to be translated to something, doesn't it.

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Well, it can simply be transliterated and you can keep the original Russian word.

The point is you are working with two foreign languages in an English language book. Why would you treat one different from the other?

Now, I don't bother translating the named German divisions or a few common terms like Panzer, Flak and Fuehrer, but in general, I don't think filling a book full of foreign terms increases its readability.

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As to the Westhoven documents, I would just as soon email copies to you if that is ok.

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Sure. Try LawrenceTDI@aol.com

"Eventually the Soviet attacks died down and the 11th Panzer Division began to move forward. By 0930, its advance had bogged down in the mud. Tanks were sliding off at inclines of 10 degrees. The division commander halted the attack until 1100 in anticipation of better weather. At 1100 the attack against height 244.8 was begun in earnest. Because of heavy cloud cover, pormised dive bomber support was unavailable. The start of the attack was "hesitant and uninspired, the artillery preparation completely inadequate" according to the Corps reports. Becuase of the heavy antitank fire, the tanks gained no ground on either side of 244.8 and were firing from a long distance.

Mellenthin (Corps Chief of Staff) arrived at the front to observe the attack and expressed his displeasure to Mickl over the inadequate preparation for the attack. Mellenthin demanded a new attack, with the concentrated effort of the entire artillery and armored force of the division. Believing that the attack could not succeed without sufficient dive bomber support, Mickl proposed that the Gross Deutschland Division join in on 12 July in an attack to capture the hills on the road. Instead a new attack by the 11th Panzer Division was scheduled for 1700...

...At 1700 parts of the 110th and 111th Panzer Grenadier Regiemnts, most of the 15th Panzer Regiment and the 911th Assault Gun Battalion jumped off for the planned attack, and advancing rapidly, reached the edge of the woods just north of 235.9 and the center of the woods north of 248.3 in order to take 239.6 and the area to the east. Still, this was a limited advance for the day.

Overall, this was a day of useless and confusing combat. For some reason, even though they were defending, the Soviets persisted in conducting a series of small disorganized attacks in the morning that frittered their strength away. Still, these attacks meet with some success when the 911th Assualt Gun Battalion pulled off the field of battle to re-supply. This was then followed by a poorly conducted attack on the part of the 11th Panzer Division. Finally, a limited attack was conducted at the end of the day but there was little that could be done to exploit it that day. So ended the German offensive push on Oboyan."

(From my current draft of "Kursk: The Battle of Prokhorovka", to be published by Westview Press)

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Originally posted by Jeff Chrisman:
I'm looking forward to your book, when do you expect it will be published?

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I'm looking forward to getting it done. I do not think the publisher has put a solid date on it but fall of 2003 has been discussed but it could be earlier. I've have dragged this out for long enough that he is understandably cautious.

I am hoping to start getting my first draft out for review in the next week or two, but keep bumping into minor delays and corrections. I hope to have my part mostly complete by the end of the year.

There may be eventually two books....the current massive of tome full of mind-numbing detail, and a much shorter version that provides a good read.

stark (400+ men)
mittelstark (300-400)
durchschnittlich (200-300)
schwach (100-200)
abkegämpft (0-100)

The strength figures refer to the "Kampfstärke" of the unit. The terms could of course be translated to:

strong, middle strength, average, weak and worn out respectively. However, I am afraid that those expressions could have connotations in English that could lead some readers to conclusions that are not justified by the original terms.
If there are similar terms in British or American military terminology, the problem would be easy, but I have not found any.
Of course one could use the straight translation, but that is not without its problems. For example, "average" could well be taken by the reader as meaning "average of the units involved in the battle or engagement, or average for the German forces at the time, for example). Obviuosly, a German reader who is not used to the particular military use of the words would be in the same position if he reads about "ein durchschnittliches battailon".
Any advise or suggestions?

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Originally posted by Niklas Zetterling:
The terms could of course be translated to: strong, middle strength, average, weak and worn out respectively.

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I don't think that this would be a problem. You could substitute "medium" for "average" but average has enough of a generic (non-mathematical) use that most people are not going to confuse it. I put all my German and Russian terms in an appendix with definitions, including the discussion on the translation of "abteilung", a term I do not use in the text of the book (its either "Battalion" or "Provisional Army Kempf").

As Rich has a better command of the English language and conventions that I do, it would be useful to get his opinion.