W. Schneider’s “Tigers in Combat I” indicates the Tiger II’s didn’t make it to Normandy with Lehr, but remained in Chateaudun and were eventually employed in the defense of the town…static defense on the part of the Tiger II’s because of mechanical problems.

What happened to the 3 Tiger I’s? Did they road march to Normandy as part of Lehr\316 Pz.Kp.(FKL)?

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Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:
The 316 Pz.Kp.(FKL) was apparently attached to Panzer Lehr in Jun of 1944. The units strength included 5 Tiger II’s and 3 Tiger I’s.

W. Schneider’s “Tigers in Combat I” indicates the Tiger II’s didn’t make it to Normandy with Lehr, but remained in Chateaudun and were eventually employed in the defense of the town…static defense on the part of the Tiger II’s because of mechanical problems.

What happened to the 3 Tiger I’s? Did they road march to Normandy as part of Lehr\316 Pz.Kp.(FKL)?

Ritgen insists that no Tigers made it to Normandy with Lehr?

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There are at least two documents that indicated that the 316. Pz.Kp. was with the Pz.Lehr up to the end of June. One of these is the strength report to the Inspector-General of Panzer Troops, 1 July 1944, which shows that the division had 38 JagdPz IV and StuG III. Since the division had 31 JagdPz IV and 10 StuG III of the 316. Pz.Kp. on 1 June, and no indication new shipments have been found for June, it seems most likely that the 316. Kp. brought its StuG III to Normandy. I have found no strength report showing Tigers with the Pz.Lehr after 1 June. On the other hand, I have found no source explicitly stating that they did not go to Normandy, except Ritgen.
Possibly it was regarded as impractical, for maintenance purposes, to have only three vehicles of this type with the division in Normandy. But if so, why did not that idea occur when the unit was formed (possibly it could have been assumed that it should have more than three Tiger I). On the other hand, the Pz.Lehr was intended to be part of I. SS-Pz.Korps, which had the 101. s.SS-Pz.Abt., with maintenance capabilities.
In any case, I have nothing indicating what happened to the three Tigers. Possibly they were sent to Mailliy-le-Camp to be used by other units forming.

One alternative would be to check the records of 302. Pz.Abt. (Fkl), but I have not done that.

I did find a vague reference in Jentz’s “Tigers I & II: Combat Tactics” indicating a Lehr strength return for July 1 indicates 6 of 8 Tiger’s (Type not specified) being operational on June 1, and 3 Tiger’s operational on July 1. He goes onto indicate “the exact fate of the 8 Tigers from 316th FKL has not been discovered”. Although as I had already indicated it is evident from W. Schneider’s books that the five Tiger II’s original assigned to 316th FKL were lost while fighting in a static mode in and around Chateau-Dun.

The original interest came about while trying to track down the exact numbers of Tiger II’s that were lost in Normandy…Lehr’s Tiger I’s was sort of a tangent interest.

I can find mention of only 12 Tiger II’s ever being present with any Schwere PanzerAbteilung during the Normandy Campaign. These twelve Tiger II’s were present with the 1st Kompanie of the 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung.
It is possible that 2 of the Tiger II’s from 1st Kompanie 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung may have survived Normandy/Falaise and were turned over to 1st Kompanie 101st SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung around St. Souplettes/Limay…Near the Seine 25/8/44. These two Tiger II’s are mentioned in the 101st SS Abtl’s history, but curiously no mention is made in the 503 Abtl’s history (W. Schneider’s Tigers in Combat I & II). In one of Franz Kurowski’s works there is mention of at least one Tiger II from the 503 Abtl. surviving Normandy (The TC of this sole survivor was apparently none other than Kurt Knipsel…sounds a bit fantastic). I’m curious if anyone can verify the survival of either one or two Tiger II’s from 1st Kompanie, 503rd’s original allotment of 12 machines in Normandy.

Although 14 Tiger II’s were issued to 1st Kompanie of 101st SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung at the end of July and early August they apparently never made it to Normandy but were diverted to Mailly-le-Camp. 1st Kompanie (Tiger II equipped) apparently doesn’t see action until 23/8/44 when it becomes involved with counterattacks against the US 79th ID’s bridgehead of the over the Seine River (near Limay).

No Tiger II allotments are indicated for the 102nd SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung for the Normandy Period. First Tiger II’s issued to this battalion appear to have been around 27/12/44.

Fourteen Tiger II’s were also dispatched to the refitted 3rd Kompanie 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung in late July but apparently did not arrive in time for Falaise. One flips over during in air attack on its transport train 12/8/44…2 Break-down in Mailly-le-Camp 11/8/44 (these are eventually railed back to Germany)…1 breaks down and is blown-up by its crew in Paris …9 are knocked out or damaged and subsequently destroyed by crew as a result of air attacks in the vicinity of Beauvis, France (North of Paris) 12/8/44?...the last Tiger II breaks down and is destroyed by its crew in Amiens 24/8/44.

I am interested in the fate of the original 12 Tiger II’s issued to 1st Kompanie of the 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung. It seems reasonable to assume that none of these machines survived Normandy\Falaise. The few that may have squeezed through the Falaise noose were no doubt abandoned on the wrong side of the Seine. It is possible that the 2 Tiger II’s turned over to 101 SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung on 25/8/44 were remnants of 3rd Kompanie 503. However the unit history for the 3rd Kompanie seemingly accounts for all 14 Tiger II’s issued to 3rd Komp (W. Schneider’s Tigers in Combat I).
W. Schneider’s “Tigers in Combat II” indicates the following:

1st Kompanie, 101st SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung

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Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:
Niklas:

I did find a vague reference in Jentz’s “Tigers I & II: Combat Tactics” indicating a Lehr strength return for July 1 indicates 6 of 8 Tiger’s (Type not specified) being operational on June 1, and 3 Tiger’s operational on July 1. He goes onto indicate “the exact fate of the 8 Tigers from 316th FKL has not been discovered”. Although as I had already indicated it is evident from W. Schneider’s books that the five Tiger II’s original assigned to 316th FKL were lost while fighting in a static mode in and around Chateau-Dun.

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The report Jentz has used is most likely the Pz-Lehr report to the Inspector-General of Panzer Troops for 1 June 1944, file BA-MA RH 10/172. At least there is a report there giving exactly those figures. As seen from other sources there had been deliveries of 5 Tiger II and 3 Tiger I to the unit. As various sources indicate, the Tiger II were defective and remained at Chateudun. I was at Freiburg two weeks ago and found a report ordering the Pz-Lehr division to give up the three Tiger I. I have ordered a copy of this order, but not yet recieved it. Hence it seems that no Tigers followed the division to Normandy.

Pz.Kp.316 (FKL) – was equipped with 3 Tiger I and 5 Tiger II (the first 5 produced - with Porsche turrets - chassis numbers 280001-280005) and was attached to Pz.-Lehr Regt.130 by 6 June 1944. The company deployed to France (first Verdun and then St. Denis) but experienced major problems with both the Tiger I and II, they were replaced by Sturmgeschuetz on 18 May. The 3 Tiger I did not see combat in Normandy, they were returned to Germany for rebuilding and reissue either shortly before or shortly after the company deployed to St. Denis. The 5 Tiger II remained at St. Denis and were later manned by scratch crews in August. All 5 were lost 13-18 August.

Total score for the Normandy Campaign:
Tiger II – 5 received, 5 lost (August)

s.Pz.Abt.503 – was equipped with 33 Tiger I (Stab, 2. and 3. Kp) and 12 Tiger II with Porsche turrets (1. Kp) by 6 June 1944. They received 14 more Tiger II, of which 12 were Porsche and 2 were Henschel turrets (6 in July and 8 in August) to refit 3. Kp. Between 7 July and 20 August they lost 30 Tiger I in combat (8 in July and 22 in August) and transferred out 3 for repair in Germany (which evidently were subsequently lost on the train captured by the Allies at Rheims). Six Tiger II (Porsche turret) were lost by 1. Kp in July and the remaining 6 (Porsche turret) were lost by 20 August. Finally, 3. Kp was re-equipped between 20 July and 11 August with 14 Tiger II. They lost 12 (10 Porsche and the 2 Henschel turrets) of the 14 by 24 August (the remaining 2 Porsche turrets were left at Mailly le Camp with mechanical problems and were then issued to 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt.101, but see below).

Since my original post on the other thread I got an email from Ron Klages clarifying this question. His research indicates that these two were actually later shipped back to Germany, were repaired and reissued to s.Pz.Abt. 503 before it was recommitted in Hungary.

Total score for the Normandy Campaign:
Tiger I – 33 received, 33 lost
Tiger II – 26 received, 24 lost

July Losses – 8 Tiger I and 6 Tiger II
August Losses – 25 Tiger I and 18 Tiger II

s.SS-Pz.Abt.101. – was equipped with 45 Tiger I by 6 June 1944. They arrived in Normandy by 12 June, assembling near Villers-Bocage. They lost 16 in June, 4 in July and 25 in August (the last was abandoned near the Bois Bourdon). On 9 July the personnel of 1.Kp arrived in Paderborn and accepted 7 Tiger II. Seven more were issued before the company entrained for Paris on 5 August, arriving there on 20 August. They were then issued the two Porsche-turret Tiger II left behind by 3./s.Pz.Abt.503.

This actually appears to be incorrect now, those two were sent to Germany. Which of course begs the question as to where the two additional Porsche-turreted Tiger II issued came from? Possibly from the five originally issued to Pz.Kp. 316 (FKL)?

It appears they lost 11 (including one of the Porsche-turrets) of these 16 by the end of August and certainly they lost their last operational one at La Capelle on 5 September. However, one (Porsche-turret?) was sent back to Germany for repair shortly before that.

Total score for the Normandy Campaign:
Tiger I – 45 received, 45 lost
Tiger II – 16 received, 11 lost

June Losses – 16 Tiger I
July Losses – 4 Tiger I
August Losses – 25 Tiger I, 11 Tiger II

s.SS-Pz.Abt.102 – was equipped with 45 Tiger I by 6 June 1944. They arrived in the vicinity of Caen by 6 July, losing 7 Tiger I 10-31 July. A further 37 were lost in August, the last Tiger I was abandoned by the battalion in Genval Belgium on 1 September. Finally, it appears that 6 new Tiger I were issued to the battalion and that 6 were sent to Germany for rebuild on 23 August, but it is unclear whether or not these were actually the same vehicles (I believe they were, and that this was simply a “paper” transfer).

My suspicions remain unconfirmed, but this simply appears to be too coincidental.

Total score for the Normandy Campaign:
Tiger I – 45 received, 44 lost

July Losses – 7 Tiger I
August Losses – 37 Tiger I

Total for all Tiger I and II in the Normandy Campaign:
Tiger I – 123 received, 122 lost
Tiger II – 47 received, 40 lost

Total Losses:
June – 16 Tiger I = 16
July – 19 Tiger I, 6 Tiger II = 25
August – 87 Tiger I, 34 Tiger II = 121

Losses by day - number/type/unit

13 June – 3/Tiger I/101
15 June – 5/Tiger I/101
16 June – 1/Tiger I/101
24 June – 2/Tiger I/101
27 June – 1/Tiger I/101
28 June – 3/Tiger I/101
30 June – 1/Tiger I/101
4 July – 1/Tiger I/101
6 July – 1/Tiger I/503 (the Tiger that fell through the bridge)
10 July – 5/Tiger I/102
11 July – 1/Tiger I/102
18 July – 7/Tiger I/503
18 July – 6/Tiger II/503
18 July – 1/Tiger I/101
19 July – 1/Tiger I/101
20 July – 1/Tiger I/101
26 July – 1/Tiger I/102
2 August – 1/Tiger I/102
3 August – 3/Tiger I/102
4 August – 1/Tiger I/102
5 August – 1/Tiger I/102
8 August – 8/Tiger I/101
11 August – 2/Tiger I/503
11 August – 2/Tiger II/503
12 August – 2/Tiger I/503
12 August – 1/Tiger II/503 (fell off a railcar during an air attack)
13 August – 1/Tiger I/102
14 August – 1/Tiger I/101
14 August – 2/Tiger I/102
14 August – 1/Tiger II/503
16 August – 1/Tiger I/101
16 August – 2/Tiger I/102
16 August – 2/Tiger II/316
17 August – 1/Tiger I/102
17 August – 1/Tiger II/316
18 August – 1/Tiger I/101
18 August – 1/Tiger I/102
18 August – 2/Tiger II/316
18 August – 1/Tiger II/503
19 August – 8/Tiger I/503
19 August – 1/Tiger I/101
19 August – 6/Tiger I/102
20 August – 1/Tiger I/102
20 August – 3/Tiger II/503
21 August – 4/Tiger I/102
21 August – 9/Tiger II/503
22 August – 9/Tiger I/503
22 August – 4/Tiger I/102
23 August – 2/Tiger II/101
24 August – 1/Tiger I/101
24 August – 1/Tiger II/503
25 August – 5/Tiger I/101
25 August – 3/Tiger I/102
26 August – 3/Tiger II/101
27 August – 1/Tiger I/503
27 August – 2/Tiger I/101
28 August – 1/Tiger I/102
28 August – 2/Tiger II/101
28 August – 1/Tiger I/101
29 August – 3/Tiger II/101
30 August – 4/Tiger I/101
30 August – 1/Tiger II/101
30 August – 5/Tiger I/102
?? August – 3/Tiger I/503 (damaged and being evacuated on the train captured at Rheims)

These are the pictures you referred to I take it?

Le Plessis Grimoult KT

and

Open road KT

I emailed David Fletcher, the historian at the museum about the 5th DCLI claim. I suggested that the look of the KT in the village would gel with the report by 5th DCLI, who claimed it was set alight when an ammunition truck exploded next to it, after being hit by a 2" mortar round.

He kindly allowed me to use his response, which he would like to be seen as comments on the issue, and not proof:

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Andreas
Thanks for your message. There is a new book '45 Tiger en Normandie' by Didier Lodieu concerning La s. Panzer-Abteilung 503 where the Le Plessis Grimoult tank is definitely attributed to 5th DCLI (unfortunately my French isn't up to reading detail. Wolfgang Schneider doesn't mention it in 'Tigers in Combat' but I find that he often claims that any knocked out tank was destroyed by its crew. Ammunition is the most likely explanatoin, whatever lifted that turret had a lot of force behind it and it probably did not help that the Tiger II had rounds stowed in the turret bustle.
DavidF

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More grist to the mill then. According to the 5th DCLI history, they were not supported by tanks in the village, since the tank attack from the west was only a feint. Since night attacks are a notoriously difficult to remember affair though, I would take that statement cum grano salis

I just received Ron Klages’ "Trail of the Tigers". It is a nice collation of data from various well known sources on the Tiger tank. It took a bit to track down how to order the manual. Ron self publishes the manual and it can only be ordered directly from him. For those interested it was only $12 plus postage. It’s about sixty or seventy pages bound in a comb binder.

It can be ordered from Ron by emailing him at:

res0ouzb@verizon.net

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As various sources indicate, the Tiger II were defective and remained at Chateudun.

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Are there any details on defects? engine? armour? reliability?