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Author Topic:   Belgorod-Kharkov 03.08 to 23.08.43 Russian losses
charly
Member
posted 01-22-2009 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for charly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russian losses, according Kirivosheevs:
- Belgorod-Kharkov 03.08 to 23.08.43:
Losses = 255,566 man
Daily = 12,170 men
(21 days)

Sokolov called here for the same period, 500,000 man Russian ,Daily losses = 23,809 men (21 days)

-Glantz called (S225), the average strength of the Schtz. Divisions of 6070 men (65% of full strength) in the Steppes Front and of 7180 men (75% of full strength) in the Voronesch Front at the beginning on 03.08.43!

On 03.08.43 were used as major units : 50Schtz.Divisions, 11 tank corps and Mech Corps and 5 Pz bBrigades!

In total 61 major units without the 5 Pz.Brigades)

The Russian reinforcements until 23.08.43 amounted according Glantz:
19 Schtz / or airborne Division (in 57.Armee, 4.Garde and 47.Armee) and 1 Gd.Mech Corps and 1 tank corps and 2 Pz.Brigaden!

(In total 82 major units thus excluding the
7 Pz.Brigaden until 23.08.43)

The strength of the additional 19 Schützen divisions and units of the tank corps and the Mech.Korps we must, with an average of 8500 to 9000 men per unit, accept (see Glantz)!

Thus, I would estimate the average strength of the 82 major units between 7200 and 7500 men (without the combat support units)!

Glantz called at the end of the Offensisve (23.08.43) strengths from 3000 to 4000 men in the Schützen-Divisions! (For some, however, also much lower strengths)
(Some of the newer units had certainly also strengths of over 4000 men have had )

With an average Start-strength of 7200 men (03.08.43) and an average End- strenght 3500 men (23.08.43) would simplify a decrease in the strength of 3700 men revealed (for every major unit)!

82 major units x 3700 men average Losses = 303.400 men Loses
(Excluding the Russian Replacements received in the said Period!

Adoption of up to 10% additional losses in the combat support units ( additional 30.000 men Losses )

Estimated replacement in the said period: around 60000 to 70000 men!

This would result in total losses following:

303.400 + 30.000 + 60.000 (70.000) = 393.400 (oder 403.400) men

Simplified therefore losses of around 400,000 men, in my acceptance!
Contrary Sokolov and Kirivosheevs assumptions)!

Question : Exist at TDI detailed information on the strength of Russian Schützen-divisions at the end of the fighting ( Between 20.8 and 26.08.43)?

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Kjetil Aasland
Senior Member
posted 01-27-2009 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kjetil Aasland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Charly

Interesting post and good work!

One question - are you sure that all of the starting-strength divisions were still present at the end of August?

Regards, K.A.

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charly
Member
posted 02-11-2009 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for charly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Source: SOVIET CASUALTIES AND COMBAT LOSSES
IN THE´TWENTIETH CENTURY" 1997
G. E, KRIVOSHEEV

excerpt from the book:

"The Chernigov-Poltava Strategic
Offensive Operation, 26 August-30 September 1943
The operation was conducted by the troops of the Central, Voronezh and Steppo
Fronts and was the first stage in the battle for the Dnieper. There was a major regrouping
offorces in these fronts during the operation; in addition, the headquarters
of the 37th, 46th and 61st Armies and of the 3rd Guards Tank Arnry, and also one
mechanised and rwo cavalry corps, fourteen divisions and five brigades, were brought
in. At the same time one cornbined-arms and two tank armies were taken off thc
fronts' fighting strength! "

I have not checked the veracity of the book !

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charly
Member
posted 02-24-2009 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for charly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Including only the 82 major units with an average of 7200 to 7500 man ,there are only 590,400 to 615,000 men in the units!

Sokolov `s assumption of total losses of 500,000 is an average of 6097 Losses!

Better Assumption(Sokolov)460,000 losses in the major units , is an average of 5610
Losses! (The remaining 40,000 men in combat support units)!

I still think Sokolov `s numbers are too high !

With the assumption ( 400,000 men total losses )that of the estimated total losses Around 370,000 people were in the major units lost, we come to 370,000 man / 82 major units = 4512 men average loss per major unit ! (My assumption)!

This is still a very high average level,for only 21 days fighting!

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