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Author
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Topic: German PD strength on 22nd June 1941?
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Darrin
Senior Member
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posted 01-29-2003 08:58 PM
  
On page 7 of Glantz Battle of Kursk he states the ger panzer div had only 120-130 tanks just before starting. My information points to at least 50% larger numbers on avg for theorectical, actual and operatinal numbers. Does anyone have info that supports his claim?
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Frederick L Clemens
Senior Member
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posted 01-30-2003 06:29 AM
deleted[This message has been edited by Frederick L Clemens (edited 01-30-2003).]
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Tangoj
Senior Member
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posted 01-30-2003 02:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darrin:
On page 7 of Glantz Battle of Kursk he states the ger panzer div had only 120-130 tanks just before starting. My information points to at least 50% larger numbers on avg for theorectical, actual and operatinal numbers. Does anyone have info that supports his claim?
Are you looking for 22 June 41 data or July 43 data?
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WWII=interest
Senior Member
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posted 01-30-2003 03:43 PM
I remember Guderian having a problem with Hitler's choice to half the panzer divisions. But I also remember Guderian saying that Hitler's choice was balanced a little by the fact there were few Pz Is and Pz IIs and that the Pz IV was becoming the main tank.
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Darrin
Senior Member
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posted 01-31-2003 11:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tangoj:
Are you looking for 22 June 41 data or July 43 data?
Sorry june 41 there were only a few PD at this point that were anywhere near this number from looking at data in jentz panzer tracts vol 1. Most people think the PD str was cut in half by barasso but that was not the case. They without going into reasons reduced the number of reg from 2 to 1. But each reg was increased from 2 small bat to 3 larger ones. So 1 fewer but larger bats actually produced a slight decline no where near 50% though. Also while almost two thirds of the ger tanks in france were PzIs and IIs by barbarasso this number had been reduce to a third. The small drop in numbers per div was more than made up for with the inreased capabilities of the avg tank.
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Andreas
Senior Member
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posted 01-31-2003 06:20 PM
12.PD (Niepold divisional history)
3 Abt, total 6 light coys (38t) and 3 medium coys (75L24). Also some light armoured recce. 1 Coy SPW.1.PD (Glantz 'Early Period of War')
2 Abt 75 PIII (5cm), 28 PIV, 45 PII, 12 PI in pioneer BN 37, 1 BN SPW 6. PD (Glantz 'Early Period of War')
3 Abt as 12.PD 73 PII, 105 35t, 42 IV. 1 Coy SPW. 7. PD (Glantz 'Early Period of War')
"Almost identical to 6.PD" BNs had four coys each, 3 light with 17 tanks (38t), one heavy with 14 PIV. 3.PD (Glantz 'Early Period of War')
3 BNs 58 PII, 109 PII (5cm short) 32 PIV 4.PD (Glantz 'Early Period of War')
2 BNs (4 light, 2 medium Coys) 1 Coy SPW 13. PD (Hoffmann, 'Die Magdeburger Division')
2 BNs, total is 10 PzBefWg III, 30 PII (Recce/Staff/light platoons), 68 PIII (3,7 and 5cm short), 38 PIV no PSW 8 PI in pioneer BN4.
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Rich
Moderator
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posted 02-01-2003 10:55 AM
Tank strength 22 June 1941:
1 PzD 154 (2 bns)
2 PzD ??? with 5 PzD about 350 total
3 PzD 198 (2 bns)
4 PzD 169 (2 bns)
5 PzD ???
6 PzD 254 (3 bns)
7 PzD 299 (3 bns)
8 PzD 223 (3 bns)
9 PzD 157 (2 bns)
10 PzD 206 (2 bns)
11 PzD 175 (2 bns)
12 PzD 231 (3 bns)
13 PzD 147 (2 bns)
14 PzD 163 (2 bns)
16 PzD 157 (2 bns)
17 PzD 180 (2 bns)
18 PzD 200 (2 bns)
19 PzD 239 (3 bns)
20 PzD 245 (3 bns)These are probably operational totals.
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Darrin
Senior Member
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posted 02-01-2003 04:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Tank strength 22 June 1941:
1 PzD 154 (2 bns)
2 PzD ??? with 5 PzD about 350 total
3 PzD 198 (2 bns)
4 PzD 169 (2 bns)
5 PzD ???
6 PzD 254 (3 bns)
7 PzD 299 (3 bns)
8 PzD 223 (3 bns)
9 PzD 157 (2 bns)
10 PzD 206 (2 bns)
11 PzD 175 (2 bns)
12 PzD 231 (3 bns)
13 PzD 147 (2 bns)
14 PzD 163 (2 bns)
16 PzD 157 (2 bns)
17 PzD 180 (2 bns)
18 PzD 200 (2 bns)
19 PzD 239 (3 bns)
20 PzD 245 (3 bns)These are probably operational totals.
Thanks Rich. I didnīt realize how many of these PDs had only 2 bats at the time.
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Rich
Moderator
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posted 02-01-2003 10:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Darrin:
Thanks Rich. I didnīt realize how many of these PDs had only 2 bats at the time.
Even more complicated than that, since the company and battalion organization varied considerably as well. Some battalions had 3 and some four companies. Companies could be either light or medium, with differing numbers of tanks as well. It seems that one spur for standardizing on the Pz-IV and Panther, and the Typ-44 Panzer Division, was the mess that developed as a result.
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JM Serrano
Senior Member
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posted 02-03-2003 06:58 AM
See http://www.achtungpanzer.com/battles.htm#barb
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